The Eagles top two quarterbacks Michael Vick and Nick Foles alternated taking reps with the number one offense yesterday at the Nova Care Complex in Chip Kelly’s first full squad workout. They both had fairly good days throwing the football, but I don’t put much stock on it, because the players are still in shorts and they’re just getting started.
As in the offseason workouts, Kelly had the Birds quarterbacks working the on the entire offense including the read option. You can tell that it’s a play he believes in and wants to run. This is the reason I still believe Michael Vick will ultimately be the game one starter at the quarterback position because he’s the QB, who has the best skill sets when you include the ability to run the read option.
The Birds head coach shed some light on the matter during his post practice news conference.
“If I call 20 read options with Nick in the game you should fire me,” said Kelly. “We’re talking about practice right now. We’ve got to figure out who our quarterback is before we understand the direction of where our offense was going, but we still have to practice plays.”
To me that says, if the quarterback is Vick then they’ll be running more read option. If the quarterback is Foles, the read option won’t be seen nearly as often. Kelly believes in the play. The play was the talk of the NFL after the last year’s regular season, playoffs and Super Bowl. You know Kelly would like to use it until defenses prove they can stop it. It’s just another weapon that defenses have to worry about.
As for the rest of the quarterback battle. Kelly pointed toward the preseason games as a major part of evaluating the quarterbacks.
“We’ve been out here in shorts and T-shirts,” Kelly said yesterday. “We haven’t had pads on. They don’t get hit. Tell me who’s going to stand in the pocket against a full rush. I haven’t seen them do that.”
Let me start by saying I will support whoever starts Foles or Vick. But it seems to me Foles has to be far superior to Vick to start. What Chip is saying is that he would have to eliminate 30% of his playbook by not running his read option if Foles starts. Is it worth it? Would you possibly give up a few turnovers and accuracy to run the read option 10-20 times a game with the potential of big plays? Vick may give you less in the passing game than Foles but rush for 70 yards and open up gaping holes for Shady for an extra 50 yards while Foles may give you some more passing yards and efficiency but add nothing to the run game. Which way do you go? Eithier way both will play. We shall see. Lets get it!
“But it seems to me Foles has to be far superior to Vick to start. What Chip is saying is that he would have to eliminate 30% of his playbook by not running his read option if Foles starts”
1. I’ve been saying that from jump. Even though Vinnie likes to tell me I’m wrong. lol.
2. Foles also does give you any deep ball plays as well. His deep balls are STILL under thrown – I don’t think that’s getting fixed in TC.
However…
1. With Foles as the QB you will run more 2 back sets to replace your inability to really run the read option. If he’s HIGHLY efficient, it may not be much of a loss.
2. Kelly’s scheme is predicated on short and intermediate throws…so there isn’t much need for a deep ball (though obviously if the opportunity arises you want to be able to take it.)
So it’s not all doom and gloom for Foles. He’s gonna have to be far superior in accuracy and decision making, ’cause Vick’s ability to run and other intangibles (like being able to beat the bricks off our divisional rivals) will come into play.
2.
Pretty good analysis ts…the read option opens up the running game which is what Kelly really wants to emphasize…to maximize Chip’s offense you need the following:
1. A strong running game with zone blocking principles. The read option fits right in and opens up lanes for the running back and forces defensive ends to hesitate…hesitation with a back like Shady McCoy is real problems for the defense
2. The Quarterback must be able to make all of the throws and force the defense to defend the entire field…you have to be able to throw deep effectively. You cant underthrow receivers like D-Jax
3. The QB must be able to make good decisions and hold on to the ball. This is the area Vick must have some improvement…but running the ball more should help him in this area
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am so sick of seeing RGIII on every network it makes me sick. He had a nice year last year but you would think he is Tom Brady. Cant wait until 9/9/13. Him and the media need some humble pie. Lets get it!
Agree 100% Dag, lets put him back on his ass!
RG-3 is gonna get his feelings hurt. Shannan is still a dick and will likely play him all wrong. Again. Cosuins him injury. Cousins is def gonna see significant time this season.
“Causing him injury”
WHAT?!?!?!?!
You think Shanahan is a dick and will use RGIII “wrong” causing him injury….yet you are a big fan of Kelly running the exact same read option here with Vick.
Make up your mind.
The read option is a stupid gimmick that will never last in the NFL because:
1 – The QB gets hit 2x as much as a traditional drop back passer.
2 – The QB gets injured, or at the least, too beat up to be effective at the end of the year
3 – (and most importantly) It flies in the face of the NFL’s QB heavy salary structure. It works when you can sacrifice $3.5 million rooks or fading vets (like Vick and RGIII), but no owner is going to drop 100 million on a QB who plays 10 games a year.
4 – The NFL now has film on the read-option. Coaches have had an off season to study it. We’ve learned from Vick’s 2010 mirage that once the film is out and studied, gimmicks fade….and fade rapidly.
“You think Shanahan is a dick and will use RGIII “wrong” causing him injury….yet you are a big fan of Kelly running the exact same read option here with Vick.”
Sigh.
One note wonder…HOW you run your QB matters…not just that it’s the THREAT of the run that’s just as important (more so) than the actual running. Meaning NO one is worried that Foles will ever take off with the ball…and if he does, so be it…it’s not like he’s fast or anything.
Vick is a LEGIT threat too run. Meaning defenses have to account for that which opens up an entire realm of possibilities.
” We’ve learned from Vick’s 2010 mirage that once the film is out and studied, gimmicks fade….and fade rapidly.”
That’s such a TIRED and BS line – people have had film on Vick for YEARS – 1. – 2. It was Reid’s decisions off the field that were the problem in 2011 – you know Wide 9 – Corners that didn’t work well together – new OL scheme – OC for DC – I could keep going.
– That film worked so well on Vick on 2011 that our offense dropped 5 fourth quarter leads…oh wait…
– That film worked so well on Vick in 2011 that our divisional rivals kept whooping our asses…oh wait…
PLEASE come up with an original thought and stop re-hashing tired used memes that have been disproven agazillion times.
All I can add ts is that Vick has NEVER won anything… Ever. When the birds were good and they had to play the falcons in the playoffs I was never concerned… I knew Vick was a fraud and not a winner… I used to laugh at ESPN when they talked about the game and how dangerous he was..JJ could dream up coverages and blitzes that made him look silly and overmatched… Nothing has changed
Haveacigar 95% of all QBS in NFL History have never won anything. Whats your point? Theres only been like 30 QBS out of thousands that have a ring.
People always miss that part.
The QB that beat Vick in that NFC Championship game? Still pissy he doesn’t have a ring.
But he did beat Vick. Vick LOST as usual
Point is we don’t want any of those QBs EITHER. Mike Vick is one of those QBs. A never-winner QB, that’s why he has to go.
Time to see if the other guys are also never winners, or if they could be winners.
Let me explain what Vick has “won”. First thing is #1 pick in the draft”. What pick were you? He has been a starting QB in the NFL. lol. Wanna no the percentages of that is to the population? lol. He did a terrible thing with dogs. He stood up like a man took his punishment and never ratted on the “many” other athletes who “probably frequented “Badnewz kennels”. He came out of jail and didn’t claim bankruptcy and paid ALL of his debts. He has done more for dog fighting awareness than any person in the HISTORY of our country. He still goes around the country to schools to this day and speaks against dog fighting. He donates to charity which he keeps quiet. Yeah hes a winner. Oh by the way he also made more money than Vinnie and every Vick haters on this board plus their kids, their aunts uncles brothers sister mom and dads combined x 10 lifetimes. Yeah hes a winner. lol
know
You have low standards when defining a professional and winner. Wow. Jim Kelly never win it all but was a winner. So was 5.
No I just live in the real world. I don’t know abourt you but most of us overcome adversities even in our own families. We all know alcoholics, drug addicts, dead beat dads, cheats etc that have overcome situations and changed their lives around and we look at them as winners. I call them winners. To become starting QB in the NFL which I gather isn’t the easiest thing to do in the world and to be called a loser, never won anything is comical. You would think you have to have some talent. Just my opinion.
That might be the dumbest post ever on gcobb. He has thrown away a hundred million and has done good for dogs because he got caught. A number one pic should have a few playoff wins for sure
30-40 QBs in NFL history have won superbowls. The other 2000 are losers because haveacigar says so. Yeah ok. Like I tell all you internet football gurus the Linc is open to the public go down and express yourself to Vick. “Hey Mike Im haveacigar from gcobb.com. and I think your a loser”. Go ahead you got a lot of mouth. Then come back to gcobb.com and let us know how that worked out for ya. Maybe his wife and kids might be there you can tell them that to. Hey kids your dads a loser. .
How bout a high school championship? A few playoff games or something. He doesn’t win …
Money
Money is exactly what he is NOT
Again, average NFL career is 3 years. When Vick returned in 2010 after not playing since 2007..something like 2/3 of the players were new, same with co-ordinators….none had ever seen Vick on the birds.
There was no film..There was no experience with him on the field.
He caught people off guard for 6 games or so. Then they caught up. Then they learned….vicks’s #s have been declining ever since.
The exact same thing will happen to the read-option. It was a nice change for the NFL – it wasn’t being game planned for (look at GB stupidly playing man D vs SF) That will not happen this year.
That QB starts moving forward with the ball (just a bit) and he become a target…he might then hand off, but you know he’ll then get hit every single play.
Anyway, love your completely ridiculous logic in regards to the read option.
To review:
Shanahan is an idiot, because RGIII actually ran with the ball on his read options.
But Kelly will be a genius, because he will only use Vick as a THREAT to run. He won’t actually run.
Joke.
You do realize its the QBs option to run don’t you? Vick is supposed to read and decide whether to run, handoff, or toss a short pass…..
Now – seeing that Vick is the KING of bailing on pass plays (running or scrambling about 25% of the time over his career), I can only Imagine what will happen giving him plays where we is allowed to run….in fact encouraging that decision….we’re going to watch the Vick run fest for about 3 games until he gets planted.
Good times.
8 3 11 8 7 8 7 3
Vick’s health (or lack thereof) really contributes a lot of balance to this kind of discussion. Ideally I would rather see Vick start just so Kelly can see first hand that leaving the QB unprotected now that defenses around the league are studying the read-option is going to get, even mobile QBs hammered more than you want. Vick has a better chance of being able to avoid being maimed in the read-option for a little while, but it’s unrealistic to expect him to play more than 5-6 games even if he wins the starting job.
Maclin possible torn ACL? Damn he cant stay healthy. If it is torn ACL his Eagles career is probably over.
Sigh.
As someone said elsewhere…if it wasn’t for bad luck Maclin would have no luck at all.
And situations like this is why I’m all for players holding out ’till they have contracts in place.
He has a contract in place.
So are you just following me around all day being an ass?
1. I was speaking about hold outs in general
2. Clearly his rookie contract that’s about to end isn’t the one he wants in place
3. Troll someone else. Thanks
To review your ridiculous position:
Shanahan is an idiot, because RGIII actually ran with the ball on his read options.
But Kelly will be a genius, because he will only use Vick as a THREAT to run. He won’t actually run.
Joke.
Man that’s unfortunate for him if it is…contract year…hoping the best for him….that A. Benn signing seems like a really good one now…
Mike Vick is the best QB on the Eagles roster hands down…Foles will help motivate the more talented Vick…hopefully we can pick up another receiver that will compliment DJax a little better than Maclin who I think was a little overrated…
For those keeping score foles has outperformed Vick in the first 2 days of camp. Here’s today’s scoop
• Nick Foles threw two gorgeous deep balls today to DeSean Jackson and Greg Salas. Perfect placement, roughly 50 yards down the field on both. Strong day for Foles. • Michael Vick is the only QB to have hit the “bug wing” guys that pose as faux defensive linemen trying to bat down passes. Vick hit them several times in OTAs and minicamp. Today, Matt Barkley joined Vick in “Club Bug Wing.” Barkley not only hit a bug wing guy, but he also had a pass deflected at the line by Chris McCoy. McCoy, by the way, has looked good so far in pass coverage from his OLB spot. • In my recap yesterday, I talked at length about Zach Ertz’s history of drops in college, and a few that I saw during the first few days of practice during training camp. Today he had another bad one – right in his chest. Brent Celek also had a bad drop. Celek has struggled with drops at times as well. Over the last 2 years, Celek is tied for 6th in the NFL in drops
Mhenski have a honest to goodness question for you. Im not here to argue. If your Chip Kelly and Foles is passing the ball better than Vick but Chip turns his play card over to the read option plays and he has to eliminate that whole portion of the playbook with Foles. But Vick makes up what he cant do as good as Foles in passing but the read option he is gashing teams with 20 yard runs and on top of that it is opening up gaping holes for McCoy and Brown where defenses just don’t know who has the ball. What does Chip do? Does he sacrifice not having that element with Foles or does he sacrifice some passing but being able to run the read option with great success? In 7-7 drills your not gonna see all Vicks worth. I don’t know the answer. Just would like your take on it.
I mean what if Demarcus Ware is tackling Vick and McCoy is ripping off 40 yard runs through gapping holes because they cant defend the read option? I don’t know. Naturally if the read-option doesn’t work the smart choice is Foles but what if it does?
Dagg, IMO I believe chip when he said we tailor out offense to our personal. Foles may not be fast but he has quicks and great vision so I still think you can run a few r.o. Plays with him.
Chip has the experience and knowledge to run any type of offense he wants. I’m a wait and see guy but I believe chip when he said open comp and I believed him when he said we will match our off to our players skills so right now I believe foles is ur starting qb after 2days of camp.
I think the biggest factor Chip is looking for is a QB who can get up to the LOS, read the defense, get the call, and get the ball out in 2-3 secs in his offense. All reports have said Foles is much better than Vick in this area, not even close (which is extremely pathetic if you are Vick since the guy has like 100 more games of experience). Hell I think they even say Barkley has been better than Vick in this area so far at practice. I just think ppl are forgetting to mention this when they talk about limiting the playbook based upon whoever starts. You wont be just missing out on some better passing if Vick starts. You will be limiting the up tempo of the offense as well (which is what i think Chip considers most important). Esp if Vick is running around like a chicken with no head getting crushed in the RO, that alone will easily slow the offense down.
Again i think Vick starts game 1 due to $. I don’t believe this crap about competition. Like I said find me a QB who makes 10 times more money than the others and isn’t the game 1 starter. thats how it works 99% of the time. Hopefully Chip ends up being that 1% exception. We will find out I guess since Foles is clearly winning the competition so far if there truly is one.
Sounds like the whole league will run the Read Option…
New York Jets:
“Geno ran that zone read today and I’m not so sure we tackled him,” Ryan said about an hour later when he met the media.
Kansas City Chiefs:
“It’s a change-up for us,” said Chiefs offensive coordinator Doug Pederson. “It’s something we’re going to continue to work on. It’s not going to be a staple of the offense. If it gives us an advantage at game time, then it’s something that can definitely help us.
“All of our quarterbacks are capable of doing the zone read, the option, some of the things we saw (Saturday). Alex reads it very well. He has a lot of experience doing it, from not only at San Francisco but back to his college days (at Utah).”
—- With all this talk, what do you think the league’s Defensive Coaches are doing this summer? NFL’s premier defensive coaches aren’t being shy about the future of the read-option: They don’t think it has one. “That’s the flavor of the month,” Steelers coach Mike Tomlin declared, adding, “We look forward to eliminating it.” Their reasoning is simple: Stopping the read-option is mission-critical for every coaching staff. “Everybody, like us, is going to do their due diligence in the offseason,” said Indianapolis Colts coach Chuck Pagano at the NFL owners meetings. “We feel very confident from a defensive perspective that we can come up with some scheme and we can get those schemes taught.”
If it was that easy to defend it shouldnt work on any level i would think. I guess the same thought process should be We worked very hard in the off season to stop NE 2 TE offense. We worked very hard in the offseason to defend the spread offense. Hows that work out? So why can you stop one offense but not another? I mean you could be right i dont know. But just because a d coordinator says they have been working hard to stop it doesnt mean anything.
I would like to get Chip Kellys take on these d coordinators comments. Hey Chip, Chuck Pagano said hes been practicing to defend it so it wont work.
Chuck Pagano also said they are practicing against the run so that wont work and the forward pass so you cant do that eithier.
If defending the read option is so easy defending a regular running play should be a piece of cake. Atleast you know who has the ball right away.
The NE 2 TE system relies on execution – a player has to block another player – a player has to beat another player in a pass route. If your players execute better you win.
The Read Option relies on a mismatch – 3 players blocking 2 players because 1 player takes himself out of the play. This mismatch can be fixed by coaching… and then the Read Option becomes a matter of execution, just like the ND 2 TE system.
The difference is – once the defense learns to properly defend the Read Option it becomes too dangerous to the health of the QB for it to be a viable system.
I don’t think Chip Kelly will put all his eggs in the Read Option basket because he knows Chuck Pagano and Mike Tomlin and Jeff Fisher and every other Defensive coach in the league will be taking away that mismatch that I mentioned. They will do it the same way U of Alabama, and many other collage teams do it – using “scrape ” or “gap exchange,” tactics.
That my opinion Dag…
It wont work because the QB will get killed is a safer bet . IMO
Saying all that reports are good on Foles. He looks a little like Matt Ryan out there. About the same size. Wouldnt that be nice.
The read option:
2011
Tebow led Broncos face the Pats. No film or experience. Tebow and McGahee rush for 252 yrds and 3 tds. Tebow throws for another 194 as they score 23 pts.
4 weeks later
Tebow led Broncos again face the Pats. Rush for 144 and pass for 108, only scoring 10 pts. Rushing QB particularly irrelevant rushing 5x for 13 yrds.
Once a team sees it and experiences it, production of the read-option drops. (BTW brady passed for 320 and 2 tds in the first game, then 360 and 6 tds in the second)
2012
Kap led 49ers face the Seahawks. No film or experience as Kap came in in the 2nd. 49ers rush for 193 yrds and Kap passes for 117 in just over 2 quarters Put up 24 pts in furious comeback.
3 weeks later
Kap led 49ers again face the Hawks. 49ers rush for 148 and Kap passes for 190 over a 5 quarter overtime game. They score only 13 points.
Once a team sees it and experiences it, production of the read-option drops.
2012
RGIII led Skins face the Giants. Little film, no experience, RGIII is fantastic.Redskins rush for 248 and pass for 232. Score 23 pts.
5 weeks later
RGIII led skins again face the Giants. Redskins rush for 207 and pass for 163. Score 17 pts.
Once defensive co-ords get their teeth into the read-option, it will disappear quickly. I think the birds are late to this party
Vinnie I would agree with you if you were running the read option exclusivrly..Defenses would be ready for it but do you honestly feel if I was Chip and a I ran run run pass pass bootleg option bootleg option pass option a team can be prepared for all that? Really?
I think you are correct and it’s how Kelly will run RO with Foles… The boot option will take the place of the qb taking off . Foles will option the DE the same way all qb do boot and have a TE for a dump off and 8 years
Yards
At Oregon Kelly ran all his plays from the inside, or the outside zone/read formation. There was no attempt on Kelly’s part to disguise what he was doing. Every person in the stadium knew what was coming based on the formation.
If Kelly uses the Oregon offense and runs all his plays from the zone/read formation with the Eagles (as Ted Williams claims), it will be interesting to see how long it takes NFL defenses to shut it down. IMO, it won’t take long, and it will fail. It will take Kelly all season to find an offense to run in the NFL.